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TOPIC: Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes

Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes
22 Oct 2018 23:59 #4126

Philip Ridley Philip Ridley's Avatar Topic Author
www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-our-hertford-road-from-cycle-enfield.html

Really interesting to see people's comments on this petition to Save our Hertford Road from Cycle Enfield. The census seems to be that Hertford Road is busier, not as wide and that the scheme is far more problematic. The petition page also provides a great summary of the issues for those who have not had hours to trawl through all of the consultation material. Bottom line is, residents want the scheme removed.

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Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes
23 Oct 2018 18:08 #4127

Change is always going to be difficult, but given Enfield's planned population increase the current reliance on the car is unsustainable. More journeys will need to be taken by foot or bike and the current reliance on motor vehicles will have to change especially given the associated dangers, pollution and noise. But changing attitudes and behaviours is a long burn.

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Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes
23 Oct 2018 23:35 #4130

If I remember rightly Philip Ridley and I have discussed these sorts of issues before in the context of Green Lanes

I'd say that in a society which has come to put on their cars rather as I put on my shoes it is inevitable that people will balk at the idea of walking, cycling or using public transport, even for the shortest journeys. Indeed I think that many drivers have acquired a strong sense of entitlement that things should be planned for them rather than the community at large.

And it's always been evident that the Council knows that, and is prepared to take the flack (and presumably loose some seats). For air quality, for street space, for overall quality of life, for returning children's freedoms, for stimulating more active - a therefore healthier - lifestyles, things have to change. London isn't the only city to come to this conclusion; not in the UK, and not in other major cities around the world. Many cities abroad have gone much further.

Before I read Philip's piece I had been looking at the petition against the Hertford Road changes. It expresses much the same views as people expressed about Green Lanes, including for example, the fact the current tail-backs make for poorer air quality. So they do, but the expectation is that eventually people who currently drive short distances will do the sensible thing and walk/bike or get on a bus .

This an issues about life a whole; change has to come.

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Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes
23 Oct 2018 23:57 #4131

Philip Ridley Philip Ridley's Avatar Topic Author
Hi David. Unfortunately you have fallen into the trap of making stuff up to fit your world view.

Enfield's own air quality assessment, you can read it on the Cycle Enfield website, states that the Hertford Road scheme will (with obvious optimism bias), result in a deterioration in air quality. The official document says nothing about it improving in the long run, despite Officers lying and saying that it will cause less traffic from one side of their face whilst at the same time saying that traffic will keep rising (obviously, because they are building tens of thousands of homes in Tottenham and Edmonton). I also expose here that their claims that air pollution will fall on Hertford Road are based on the bogus assessment that the scheme will result in a 2.5% fall in traffic when as I said, Officers say traffic levels just keep rising.

You also fall into the trap of linear thinking. Traffic is a complex, non-linear system. In some circumstances yes, restriction of traffic can reduce car usage. However, when you increase journey times on bus routes, it has the opposite effect. When buses are slower, the same number of buses must either run on a less frequent or shorter route, without massive investment (£150k per bus, in terms of capital outlay alone). Thus, the impact is non-linear, reduce the reliability and frequency and route length of buses and the result is more cars on rat routes, which is one of the reasons that Enfield product more pollution on the side roads we all live in.

In the petition you will see that I call not only for bus priority measures, buses shift more people than any other mode in Enfield. I also call for more cycle lanes, but on safe, quiet ways off the main roads. An extension of Cycle Superhighway 1 quiet way and more routes to enhanced and expanded cycle paths on both sides of the river lea, which is actually where parents should want their children to cycle.

Cycle Superhighway 1 takes you to the City and the Lea takes you to Stratford and Canary Wharf, all bases covered, whilst as in Tottenham, Enfield could focus on bus priority measures on Hertford Road that cyclists can also use.

Yes, cycling is part of the solution, but not on the main arterial bus routes. Only vastly improved, faster bus routes (this scheme does the opposite) or maybe the reintroduction of trams can possibly cater for the hundred thousand or so more folk expected in east Enfield by 2030. Cycle Enfield admit that around 60% of journeys are by bus. Slash bus routes by 10 to 20% and you don't get anywhere near a positive return in terms of overall sustainable transport gain even if you get get five fold increase in cycling. There has to be a way to boost cycling without hammering our vital bus routes.

Post hoc hopeful rationalisation of a poor design is simply wishful thinking, and this is from somebody who is pro cycling.

In terms of Adrian's claim that there will be a long burn change, no, crap cycle schemes will turn public opinion against cycle schemes, period, which is such a shame because the cash could have been spent on great cycle schemes and you miss the chance of a generation to really change minds. In the end, the majority want cycle lanes removed from Hertford Road and that will likely occur in time because believe me, the people in Edmonton are not fools, they are totally up in arms right now.

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Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes
24 Oct 2018 09:39 #4132

Oh look, NIMBYS.....

Totally unsurprising, really. By majority, keeping with Stats101, is that of population or sample? As if by sample, as I suspect, then this will no doubt be skewed by staggering bias. All the angry NIMBYs will always come out and argue against such a scheme and be sure to respond to any survey negatively. Those that aren't bothered, or even in support, aren't going to hunt a survey out to respond positively.

Nobody with any credibility of road safety focussed transport planning will ever suggest quietways have any credence or credibility. They are neither safe, nor quiet, nor infrastructure. Just an occasional "Q" painted on the road. As anyone who has ever cycled (or walked or driven) the proposed Q10 along Palmerston Road (a "non main road" example as petition appears to desire/recommend) would understand. Absolutely laughable.

If there is ever going to achieved the much needed modal shift away from cars - it isn't going to be by putting the only faux infrastructure on side roads that don't go between places people want to go. No other traffic travels exclusively by side road - why should cycles?

Hijacking the "for the many and not the few" phrase too, when resisting the cheapest cleanest most sustainable form of travel too. Wow. Let's all stick to single occupancy SUVs parked right outside shops that struggle regardless, because that will tackle pollution and obesity.... #rollonUSA

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Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes
24 Oct 2018 13:39 #4133

Philip Ridley Philip Ridley's Avatar Topic Author
You will not win hearts and minds by throwing around cliche's like NIMBY. Yes, folk in Edmonton do not want the main road in their back yard destroyed, but that is no cliche.

Modal shift will not occur from schemes like the A1010, that hammer bus routes by causing delays of up to 2mins per mile, according to Enfield and TfL's own assessments. Cycling will never shift the sort of people London needs, this will be by bus, tram, train and tube, supplemented but not driven by cycling, because only a tiny minority are fit enough or have enough time to cycle to the City or West End.

Before reacting against quiet-ways like a cliche also, please explain what is wrong with Cycle Superhighway 1 and why enhanced cycle routes both sides of the River Lea would be problematic? I only cycle along the Lea in Edmonton and its full of cyclists, yet there are very few routes to it. The eastern tow path should be widened and new routes need to be developed on the west bank with more bridges over the river. The Mayor previously sought additional walking and cycling bridges at Boundary Ditch, Charlton Road and elsewhere to provide better access to the Lea, which provides car free access to Hertfordshire, Tottenham, Waltham Forest, Hackney, Stratford and Canary Wharf. Everybody wants to walk and cycle along the river. Why are you criticising this proposal?

For too long doo gooders like you who do not stop to ask what real local people want say that you can trample over the lives of a whole community to "save the planet" whilst these schemes wreck people's lives. Sounds like a juvenile Super Man complex frankly. If we listen to people's concerns instead of calling them NIMBY's there is a creative way to install cycle infrastructure and keep local people happy and if you don't, you will take it too far and the backlash will put back the cycle agenda decades, for a generation because it will become political poison due to this arrogant approach to non-listening.

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Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes
24 Oct 2018 15:48 #4134

David E and Philip, play the man not the ball. No more "NIMBY", "do-gooders", and certainly no more "juvenile Superman", or you'll be banned. Stick to the arguments, don't insult people who you don't agree with.
Basil

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Petition against Hertford Road cycle lanes
24 Oct 2018 16:09 #4135

Philip Ridley wrote:
For too long doo gooders like you who do not stop to ask what real local people want say that you can trample over the lives of a whole community to "save the planet" whilst these schemes wreck people's lives. Sounds like a juvenile Super Man complex frankly. [...] this arrogant approach to non-listening.


As I've already indicated, insulting your opponents like this is unacceptable. But to return to the arguments...

There are a whole series of arguments in favour of a drastic reduction in private car traffic. Most of them come down to a question of priorities, ie they're subjective and personal - for instance, some people think that thousands of casualties a year is an acceptable price to pay for the convenience of drivers, others don't. However, there is one argument that is absolutely objective. We have to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and we have to do it urgently and unless and until all electricity is carbon-free, which won't be for some time, that requires a huge reduction in use of cars. If we don't, we will be "trampling over the lives" of the future population of the entire planet. And if we don't, the chickens will be coming home to roost while many of us on this forum are still alive. That is simply an objective scientific fact.

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