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TOPIC: Fox redevelopment: Planning application submitted

Fox redevelopment: Planning application submitted 13 Sep 2017 23:40 #3181

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[Original article]

Star Pubs and Bars and the Lateral Property Group have now submitted a planning application for redevelopment of the Fox pub and car park. There appear to be only small changes to the plans that were on show at the public exhibition held this July.

The planning application

17/03634/FUL | Redevelopment of site involving partial demolition of existing buildings to provide refurbished public house (A4) and commercial unit (A1-A5, D2) on the ground floor together with erection of 44 residential units comprising (25 x 1 bed, 14 x 2 bed and 4 x 3 bed, 1 x studio) involving Part 3, Part 4 storey side and rear extensions with associated car parking plant, hard/soft landscaping and amenity space at first floor. | Public House 413 Green Lanes London N13 4JD

artists impression of fox developmentHow the Fox development would look from Green Lanes - an artist's impression from the planning application

The associated documents can be accessed online on the Enfield Council website.  The documents to read first are the following:

  • Planning Statement
  • Statement of Community Involvement
  • Design and Access Statement pages 1-20
  • Design and Access Statement pages 21-31
  • Design and Access Statement pages 32-35
  • Design and Access Statement pages 36-47
  • Design and Access Statement pages 48-64

As always, members of the public can comment on the planning application.  However, according to the Star/Lateral website, Enfield Council will be holding a public consultation (date unspecified).

Does the public support the proposals?

A summary of feedback from the public, included in the Statement of Community Involvement, indicates a very high level of support for the proposals for the "refurbishment and improvement of the Fox": 52 per cent of respondees were fully supportive and 44 per cent partially supportive.  76 per cent favoured a "high quality food pub".  There was also support for the "new flexible function room space":  49 per cent fully supportive, 34 per cent partially supportive.

As regards the overall proposals for the site (ie not just the pub), support levels were somewhat less high:  42 per cent fully supportive, 47 per cent partially supportive.  Only about a quarter of respondees (28 per cent) were fully supportive of the "design of the development", while 48 per cent were partially supportive.

The report includes a few quoted views about the design of the new flats:

“I like the original pub unchanged but not the design of the new “boxy” buildings. These should blend in more with the surrounding architecture”

“Contemporary approach to residential block is supported..."

“The architecture looks attractive and the massing looks appropriate.”

"The brick-built flats look like they are sympathetic to the Edwardian buildings of the area”

“I am happy with the modern additions. I like that they contrast to the old building.”

fox development viewed from devonshire closeThe redevelopment viewed from Devonshire Close

What do the proposals entail?

A summary of the main points:

  • The exterior of the main pub building would be restored, including replacement of the missing corner turret.
  • The current function room and other added-on buildings at the rear of the pub would be demolished.
  • The future pub would be smaller - the entire area to the left of the main entrance would become part of a new shop or cafe.
  • The new shop/cafe premises would comprise all of the existing pub to the left of the main entrance, including the left-hand bay window and the single-storey area to the left, plus the premises currently leased to a hairdressers.  The total area would be nearly as big as that of the future pub.
  • The future pub would incorporate a "flexible function room space" with walls that could be folded away.  When not in use as a function room, this would be used as an integral part of the pub.
  • An additional storey would be built on top of the single-storey part of the pub fronting on Green Lanes and the adjacent hairdressers shop.  This would be used for flats.
  • The existing first and second floors of the pub building would be used for new flats, including a two-bedroom flat for the pub licensee.
  • Most of the area to the rear of the pub and shop/cafe premises, including the area currently occupied by the function room, would be occupied by a car park at ground floor level.  Three storeys of flats would be built above the whole car park apart from an area occupied by a shared garden on the roof of the car park.  There would be a total of 44 flats (including those on the upper floors of the existing pub building).

The evolution of the proposed design

The planning application includes details of the changes that the proposals have undergone since Star and Lateral first began discussions with Enfield Council planning officers and with various "stakeholder" groups in and around Palmers Green.

The most striking changes relate to the design of the flats to be built over the existing car park.  The initial design was for a building with a pitched roof and large mansard windows.  At the behest of council planning officers, who wished the new building to be dissimilar to the pub building, a much more angular design was substituted.  The planning officers also asked for the new building to be separated from the pub, the solution being the insertion of a glazed "slot" between pub and new building.  Two more redesigns were required before the planning officers were content (see the drawings below, showing the point on Fox Lane where the two buildings abut).

evolution of fox development proposalsThe evolving appearance of the proposed new building - December 2016 to June 2017

The proposals for the pub and shop/cafe also changed considerably between last December and this June, though in this case the pressure for changes came as much from community stakeholders as from council planning officers.

The earliest design made no provision for a function room.  However, community groups pointed out that the existence and uses of the current function room were important factors in the successful application for Asset of Community Value status.  Lateral responded by slightly enlarging the area devoted to the pub and adding a very small function room, which would have been completely inadequate for Talkies Community Cinema or as a live music venue.

The design exhibited in June featured a larger function room, which Lateral claim would be suitable for use as a cinema with an audience of 145 - whether that is actually the case is a moot point.  The function room would be separated from the main pub using folding doors and when not used as a function room would form part of eating and drinking area.

proposed fox ground floor planThe latest proposed layout of the ground floor of the future Fox. The area at the top right hand corner can be separated off using folding doors to form the function room.. (Click on the drawing for a larger version)

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Fox redevelopment: Planning application submitted 14 Sep 2017 09:47 #3182

Looks great and fantastic for frustrated young first time buyers trying to get on the ladder that we've a nice little chunk of housing supply coming to the market - providing pricing isn't too aspirational!

Pity they couldn't set the resi a little further back from the street edge. Really hope the new pub will be less of a dump than the current - Palmers Green is starved of decent respectable drinking venues.

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Fox redevelopment: Planning application submitted 14 Sep 2017 09:48 #3183

Great article too, by the way, thanks for sharing so much detail & info.

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Fox redevelopment: Planning application submitted 15 Sep 2017 00:04 #3187

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David Eden wrote: Great article too, by the way, thanks for sharing so much detail & info.

Thanks, David, but I must warn readers that it's only a very simplified summary. To get the real picture, you need to read the documents that I listed.

I forgot to include the video about the Fox redevelopment that recently appeared on Palmers Green Tales, made by John Sollis and Jenny Bourke, which gives a good overview of the plans. (For some reason, they've credited the historical information to me, but I'm pretty sure that Sue Beard (Palmers Green Jewel in the North) should get the credit.) Anyway, you can watch it here - go full screen for best effect.

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Fox redevelopment: How to submit your views 20 Sep 2017 23:05 #3195

The website set up by Star/Lateral at states the following:

The London Borough of Enfield will also undertake public consultation as part of their consideration of the planning application.

I enquired about this at the Palmers Green Ward Forum this evening and was told that there would be no special consultation laid on by the council, it's just a matter of submitting your views on the planning application in the usual way.

The planning application is at , which gives the following dates:

Application Received Date Fri 11 Aug 2017
Application Validated Date Wed 30 Aug 2017
Expiry Date Wed 04 Oct 2017
Actual Committee Date Not Available
Latest Neighbour Consultation Date Thu 14 Sep 2017
Neighbour Consultation Expiry Date Thu 05 Oct 2017
Standard Consultation Date Wed 13 Sep 2017
Standard Consultation Expiry Date Wed 04 Oct 2017
Last Advertised In Press Date Wed 20 Sep 2017
Latest Advertisement Expiry Date Wed 04 Oct 2017
Last Site Notice Posted Date Not Available
Latest Site Notice Expiry Date Not Available
Statutory Expiry Date Wed 29 Nov 2017

Perhaps someone could explain what these dates mean for us in practice?

My own view is that the design of the new blocks is completely unsuitable, they will stick out like a sore thumb. The original design with pitched roof would have been better, providing the ugly and too large mansard windows were removed. The planners told the developers that they wanted something less like the pub and more modern, so the architects then went to the opposite extreme with this very angular and boxy design. IIt's a pity that the council didn't ask the developers to put out some initial options to the public at an early stage rather than advancing their own theories of good design.

The protruding very tall (2-storey) rectangular elements are a big problem for me. Why not just stick to a plainer yet elegant modern design? And I think that the recessed top storey is very inelegant. The recessing has been done to diminish "massing" - an easier way to do that would be to omit the top storey all together.

I think that the developers are being too greedy all together by cramming more than 40 dwellings into this space, there should be fewer flats with larger rooms.

As regards the pub itself, the "new" Fox will definitely be a great improvement on the current rundown pub and if done really well could pull in a lot of business - after all, there are few rival establishments nearby. In fact, I think that the entire area of the current pub could have been kept, meaning that there would be room for a bigger function room to the left of the Green Lanes entrance.

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Fox redevelopment: How to submit your views 24 Sep 2017 14:15 #3198

Absolutely agree with Basil about the generally brutalist facade: the pitched roof option, with different windows, would be preferable. Bloody architects: why do they always feel the need to 'make a statement'? They should realize that after they've taken their money and skedaddled, the rest of us have to live with (or even in!) the results.

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Fox redevelopment: Planning application submitted 26 Sep 2017 14:42 #3205

I think it's a long way from brutalist and hardly a statement building!

Bit boxy maybe but I'd rather they'd maximise housing delivery to an area starved of it.

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